Ah, you intend to be willfully ignorant of the basics of the law while abusing your ignorance to flog what could charitably be called sophistry. Good luck I guess.
I am familiar with the name. I’m familiar with the fact that trump isn’t incriminated in any way in regards to him, especially not in any child raping ways, and in fact it’s a fact that trump was one of the very first people sounding alarm bells about Epstein, and he even reported him to the fbi.
Personally, I don’t give a fuck. Borders just prove that the state will cause violence against the individual.
However for the sake of argument and how the US should (and used to) do this:
Identify yourself as border agents, and ask them to identify themselves. Normally you cant do that but its probable cause if you know who they are.
identify the issue: you have over stayed your welcome
provide the remedy: tell them they must demonstrate that they have a ticket or passage to any other country and release them to do so, or if they have a criminal charge or record, escort them to the terminal with a ticket they pay for, or the state provides a ticket and send them home.
“Do you just not want laws enforced?” Says the person claiming a man is guilty before any trial and defending a warrantless arrest neither of which are legal.
As soon as someone says “we should restrict semi automatic guns to sain and upstanding citizens” they have a fit about freedom and the need for an armed population.
Laws like human rights, right of due process, right to not be attacked by unidentified masked thugs, right to not be attacked with unjustified force …. It’s clear who is committing the more serious crimes here: the end does not justify the means
The due process is for them to leave the country after their visa has ended. The due process is for them to be deported if they don’t. The aren’t owed a trial, their right to be in the country has legally and factually ended.
Due process means following the legal procedure. Due process means proving it. Due process means giving the accused a chance to object. This is what prevents mistakes, prevents abuse of authority, prevents it from degenerating into racism, prevents terrorizing innocents. Due process is what keeps us from being the criminal.
And what do you think happens after they’ve been taken into custody for overstaying their visa?
Remember - it’s not “alleged” that they’ve overstayed their visa. It’s fact. It’s like if you get caught driving without a license. You get arrested. That’s the process.
You can’t “object” to your visa being expired., just like you can’t “object” to not having a drivers license. These are things that are registered with the government and they can easily check the status of.
If you are caught driving without a license, the police officer takes down the evidence, maybe they arrest you, you are brought before a magistrate to see if evidence looks solid and you can decide whether to accept whatever the charge is or dispute it. If you dispute you are probably allowed free on bail or your own recognizance until you are called in to court. There the state describes the charge and produces their evidence and you have an opportunity to argue it.
There is all sorts of due process, checks and balances against abuse of authority, and the state has to have a preponderance of evidence showing you were guilty.
And of course the analogy falls over when you realize that overstaying your visa is a civil offense, not a crime.
The analogy doesn’t change. You get taken into custody for overstaying your visa. That’s the first step of the due process.
I don’t know where you live, but where I line driving without a license is a straight up arrest and fine. You don’t get brought before a magistrate where they present evidence, because the fact you don’t have a license is not up for dispute. There’s no evidence that can change that.
All of this is almost irrelevant though, because the very first step is being detained. That’s the start of the due process.
This isn’t due process. You’re just making up your own definitions in order to support your ridiculous argument.
I’m not surprised that a criminal like /u/GoatSynagogue, someone who is in the country illegally, would be advocating for such lawlessness by government officials. He needs to be captured and deported back to Antarctica immediately.
People staying in a country illegally harms people. It harms the person who misses out on a job because of them. It harms the economy by them not paying taxes and getting paid below minimum wage and/or in cash. It harms services that are used by an extra person who shouldn’t be there.
Well that’s all bullshit and not how an economy works sooooo… Yeah.
Oh they’re not getting paid enough but someone wants their job. They also pay taxes. If it’s harmful to the economy then they should not be paid below minimum wage in cash - that’s not the person’s fault that has the job, that’s the fault of the employer.
I’m all for dignified work and good wages. Acting like individuals just magically don’t participate in a local economy because they’re underpaid immigrants is silly.
They’re getting paid illegal rates because they’re illegally in the country and are hardly going to risk deportation to dob their employer in. If they didn’t work for illegally low rates, the employer would have to pay a citizen the minimum wage.
If they didn’t work for illegally low rates, the employer would have to pay a citizen the minimum wage.
Well, I promise they’d work for at least minimum wage (which in and of itself is not enough) if the employer paid them that. You’re acting like it’s the victim’s fault here when they’re being taken advantage of by a corrupt system.
That’s such a tiny view of the world. These people have endured great hardship and are doing jobs that are back breaking but necessary (a lot of them are picking crops, raising livestock and more than raising that meat they’re working in slaughterhouses too).
Yet you think because they didn’t jump through the absurd hoops and frankly absolutely broken immigration system we have that they don’t deserve basic human dignity and rights?
I promise you nobody is coming to “steal” a job, and really can jobs even be stolen? What does that mean, that someone qualified got a job somewhere and you think they don’t deserve it for some reason you can’t articulate? I suppose the reason you’d say is that they “didn’t come here legally,” even if their choice was between survival with illegal immigration to try to make a better life for their family or enduring violence and poverty. I suspect most of us would choose the former if it were an option and we were that desperate too.
I should note here that I think nationalism and borders in general are kind of bullshit. So, to me, the very fucking made up out of thin air laws around it are kind of nonsense. Hence why I think the whole concept of “illegal” immigration is madness. That’s just my opinion though. Nonetheless, even if that view may be on the more extreme end it should be very easy to agree with the fact that our immigration system and the laws around it are very very broken.
Even then we are seeing folks here legally thrown into concentration camps. Some USA citizens suffered the same fate just for their skin color. People being deported to places they never have set foot in because they had the audacity to try to come to the USA for a better life.
Plus that’s putting aside the whole fact that white people showed up and committed a genocide against the natives to even bring the USA into existence in its current state. I don’t think it’s really morally right to complain about immigration when your whole country is founded on dudes showing up on boats from across the ocean and extreme violence.
It’s not a “tiny world view”. Borders and immigration rules exist for a reason. Not understanding the effects of unchecked immigration is the “tiny world view”
You don’t actually care about this, you just care about licking trumps boots clean.
You know how everyone knows this? There is a very simple fix for all of this. Put it on the employers. Make it a crime to hire people without authorization to work here.
But, this is never done because those people, the people taking advantage of undocumented immigrants, are also the same people supporting trump.
You know why businesses aren’t getting caught for it? Because of people like you who think “no one is illegal” and don’t want illegal immigrants to lose their jobs and be deported.
He was in the country illegally. Do you just not want laws enforced?
Enforcement of immigration is a CIVIL issue. It’s not a crime.
ICE was formed after 9/11. We functioned perfectly fine without them.
They are a fascist organization without accountability that for its entire history has attacked and kidnapped people without reason.
Removed by mod
Removed by mod
So tax fraud should just be ignored? That’s just paperwork.
Tax fraud is a crime, overstaying your visa isn’t. Please learn the difference between civil and criminal code.
Anyone know why my comment above was removed?
Doesn’t matter, it’s just paperwork.
Ah, you intend to be willfully ignorant of the basics of the law while abusing your ignorance to flog what could charitably be called sophistry. Good luck I guess.
Don’t engage with this user who uses “TDS” unironically
Yea I want laws like “cops must identify themselves” enforced. And laws like “the president can’t rape children.” Let’s start there.
TDS confirmed.
You are a pedophile
It’s deranged to think rape should have consequences?
No, but you’re saying Trump has raped children.
Yes I am. Are you familiar with the name Jefferey Epstein?
Edit: also do you think cops don’t have to identify themselves when making arrests as well? Or is that just me being deranged?
I am familiar with the name. I’m familiar with the fact that trump isn’t incriminated in any way in regards to him, especially not in any child raping ways, and in fact it’s a fact that trump was one of the very first people sounding alarm bells about Epstein, and he even reported him to the fbi.
But you knew all that, right?
I love how you keep ignoring half of what I say because you know you’re full of shit.
You seem like someone who is a collaborator.
Personally, I don’t give a fuck. Borders just prove that the state will cause violence against the individual.
However for the sake of argument and how the US should (and used to) do this:
how hard is this?
What does any of that have to do with them arresting him when he landed in LA?
But he had no outstanding warrants.
He was unlawfully in the country which is grounds for deportation.
What about the 6th Amendment?
As people keep pointing out, it’s a civil issue, not criminal, therefore the 6th amendment doesn’t apply.
But the 4th and 5th amendments do.
“Do you just not want laws enforced?” Says the person claiming a man is guilty before any trial and defending a warrantless arrest neither of which are legal.
These are the types that will push government to send people to gitmo for littering and jaywalking without mercy or relent…
…then when draconian law inevitably turns on themselves they’ll beg and plead for exceptional leniency and understanding.
As soon as someone says “we should restrict semi automatic guns to sain and upstanding citizens” they have a fit about freedom and the need for an armed population.
You don’t get a trial for overstaying a visa lol
Laws like human rights, right of due process, right to not be attacked by unidentified masked thugs, right to not be attacked with unjustified force …. It’s clear who is committing the more serious crimes here: the end does not justify the means
The due process is for them to leave the country after their visa has ended. The due process is for them to be deported if they don’t. The aren’t owed a trial, their right to be in the country has legally and factually ended.
Due process means following the legal procedure. Due process means proving it. Due process means giving the accused a chance to object. This is what prevents mistakes, prevents abuse of authority, prevents it from degenerating into racism, prevents terrorizing innocents. Due process is what keeps us from being the criminal.
And what do you think happens after they’ve been taken into custody for overstaying their visa?
Remember - it’s not “alleged” that they’ve overstayed their visa. It’s fact. It’s like if you get caught driving without a license. You get arrested. That’s the process.
You can’t “object” to your visa being expired., just like you can’t “object” to not having a drivers license. These are things that are registered with the government and they can easily check the status of.
If you are caught driving without a license, the police officer takes down the evidence, maybe they arrest you, you are brought before a magistrate to see if evidence looks solid and you can decide whether to accept whatever the charge is or dispute it. If you dispute you are probably allowed free on bail or your own recognizance until you are called in to court. There the state describes the charge and produces their evidence and you have an opportunity to argue it.
There is all sorts of due process, checks and balances against abuse of authority, and the state has to have a preponderance of evidence showing you were guilty.
And of course the analogy falls over when you realize that overstaying your visa is a civil offense, not a crime.
The analogy doesn’t change. You get taken into custody for overstaying your visa. That’s the first step of the due process.
I don’t know where you live, but where I line driving without a license is a straight up arrest and fine. You don’t get brought before a magistrate where they present evidence, because the fact you don’t have a license is not up for dispute. There’s no evidence that can change that.
All of this is almost irrelevant though, because the very first step is being detained. That’s the start of the due process.
This isn’t due process. You’re just making up your own definitions in order to support your ridiculous argument.
I’m not surprised that a criminal like /u/GoatSynagogue, someone who is in the country illegally, would be advocating for such lawlessness by government officials. He needs to be captured and deported back to Antarctica immediately.
Well, I’d object, but you said he was a criminal so you’ve clearly given him his due process!
(/s if that’s needed)
Laws that are bullshit and that breaking them doesn’t harm anyone? Yeah I don’t want those enforced. You’re right.
People staying in a country illegally harms people. It harms the person who misses out on a job because of them. It harms the economy by them not paying taxes and getting paid below minimum wage and/or in cash. It harms services that are used by an extra person who shouldn’t be there.
Well that’s all bullshit and not how an economy works sooooo… Yeah.
Oh they’re not getting paid enough but someone wants their job. They also pay taxes. If it’s harmful to the economy then they should not be paid below minimum wage in cash - that’s not the person’s fault that has the job, that’s the fault of the employer.
I’m all for dignified work and good wages. Acting like individuals just magically don’t participate in a local economy because they’re underpaid immigrants is silly.
They’re getting paid illegal rates because they’re illegally in the country and are hardly going to risk deportation to dob their employer in. If they didn’t work for illegally low rates, the employer would have to pay a citizen the minimum wage.
Well, I promise they’d work for at least minimum wage (which in and of itself is not enough) if the employer paid them that. You’re acting like it’s the victim’s fault here when they’re being taken advantage of by a corrupt system.
They’re not being taken advantage of, they’re not supposed to be in the country working.
That’s such a tiny view of the world. These people have endured great hardship and are doing jobs that are back breaking but necessary (a lot of them are picking crops, raising livestock and more than raising that meat they’re working in slaughterhouses too).
Yet you think because they didn’t jump through the absurd hoops and frankly absolutely broken immigration system we have that they don’t deserve basic human dignity and rights?
I promise you nobody is coming to “steal” a job, and really can jobs even be stolen? What does that mean, that someone qualified got a job somewhere and you think they don’t deserve it for some reason you can’t articulate? I suppose the reason you’d say is that they “didn’t come here legally,” even if their choice was between survival with illegal immigration to try to make a better life for their family or enduring violence and poverty. I suspect most of us would choose the former if it were an option and we were that desperate too.
I should note here that I think nationalism and borders in general are kind of bullshit. So, to me, the very fucking made up out of thin air laws around it are kind of nonsense. Hence why I think the whole concept of “illegal” immigration is madness. That’s just my opinion though. Nonetheless, even if that view may be on the more extreme end it should be very easy to agree with the fact that our immigration system and the laws around it are very very broken.
Even then we are seeing folks here legally thrown into concentration camps. Some USA citizens suffered the same fate just for their skin color. People being deported to places they never have set foot in because they had the audacity to try to come to the USA for a better life.
Plus that’s putting aside the whole fact that white people showed up and committed a genocide against the natives to even bring the USA into existence in its current state. I don’t think it’s really morally right to complain about immigration when your whole country is founded on dudes showing up on boats from across the ocean and extreme violence.
It’s not a “tiny world view”. Borders and immigration rules exist for a reason. Not understanding the effects of unchecked immigration is the “tiny world view”
I guess that justifies the physical violence against them? If someone breaks any law we should just fucking tackle them?
I mean……yeah, if they’re resisting being detained.
If someone punched your elderly mother in the face, would you be complaining if they were tackled while running away?
Get the fuck out of here, fascist scum.
You don’t actually care about this, you just care about licking trumps boots clean.
You know how everyone knows this? There is a very simple fix for all of this. Put it on the employers. Make it a crime to hire people without authorization to work here.
But, this is never done because those people, the people taking advantage of undocumented immigrants, are also the same people supporting trump.
It is illegal already……
You know why businesses aren’t getting caught for it? Because of people like you who think “no one is illegal” and don’t want illegal immigrants to lose their jobs and be deported.
Okay, liar.
As if ICE can be trusted to be lawful, let alone good.