The headline is a lie. Developers will be fine. One company will lose users. And rightly so.
They don’t allow me to create an account because email restriction, VPN/IP restriction…
If they don’t want content, that’s their choice
Every time I go to SO I have to deal with CloudFlare checks or captchas. I’m not genuinely not sure why, but it has kept me from clicking SO links from search engines first. Not even using a VPN. Kind of odd.
I’m sure they have all the heuristics in Cloudflare cranked up due to all programming model training aggressively digesting their content. Can’t blame them, honestly.
so the ai kills off all its food sources and then what
MSDN subscription
Either Butlerian Jihad or Yokohama Kaidashi Kikou.
Ha. I remember I used my points to create a bounty for something I kind of saw as broken with Windows but that eventually expired or something and after that, never looked back. Whole thing doesn’t make sense. Why make a bounty possible if it can just expire. Nobody answered the question… and I couldn’t accrue points to do it again in a reasonable manner so go figure…
Sure is bullshit. I now and then could have answered a question i am an expert in. But i never had an account and wouldn’t have had the points to do it, because “popular question” and whatnot.
Maybe, just maybe, most of the big questions have been asked and answered already.
These days when I look something up it’s been answered like 8 years ago, and the answer is still valid. And they aggressively mark questions as dupes, so people aren’t opening too many repeat questions.
Not in technology, it’s a rapidly evolving field. Answers that might have been absolutely perfect five years ago can now be irrelevant archaic trivia.
The annoying thing about the dupe policy is sometimes the answer does change and the accepted answer to the existing question is from 5 years ago.
Yup. Infuriating. I can’t remember how many times I saw a thread of someone asking my version of a question that was then closed as duplicate linking to an older one that wasn’t the right version and therefore the fix was irrelevant or at least not best practice anymore.
Yep, I’ve never needed to ask a question on Stack Overflow as everything I’ve searched for has been answered already… or I’ve looked elsewhere for the answer as I’m not allowed to upvote, downvote or ask questions on it anyway due to lack of karma (or whatever they call it). No wonder it’s in decline if nobody new is allowed to contribute, and every new question is closed as a duplicate.
The barrier to entry is silly.
The barrier to entry is why it’s a good place for answers and not Reddit-quality responses.
Reddit can give quality tech responses though. The voting system on SO would be sufficient.
I’ve always been afraid of opening questions on stack overflow. To the point that I’d rather just figure it out myself.
The article also goes into it, but I think the invent of AI and asking somewhat specific questions may also explain the decline. If you can get a result that can get you 90% of the way there with an AI that used stack overflow as a resource, theres no reason to actually ask on stack overflow. Its faster to go on the AI result or go on google/bing/etc…etc… that has the answer right there on the page.
And the redesign…its pretty bad in my opinion.
I was once downvoted answering a question on a library…that I created on stack overflow. Still makes me laugh.
The graph suggests it started declining well before AI became mainstream. I’m sure it accelerates it, but it had already long peaked.
Yep I agree. Its a combo of many different things.
I cant tell you the last time I was on SO for a question. its been that long.
I believe so. Whenever I have a problem, I look for an answer in the following order: search engine > reading a forum post > documentation > writing a forum post. I usually don’t work on bleeding-edge software, so somebody probably has already asked my question and received an answer too. If it hasn’t explicitly been asked yet, it might have already been answered in the documentation. Furthermore, as you said, Stack Overflow would much sooner delete your post for being a duplicate of a 21-year-old post than provide an answer to your question. There are other (and sometimes newer) tools out there that can provide the same answer without putting up so much resistance to you simply attempting to use them. If they want their traffic back, they could start there, instead of “rebranding”.
(and sometimes newer)
My God man, say it louder for the folks in the back. A 21 year old answer, heck even an 8 year old answer like OP said, might not STILL be the best answer in the current age. Technology evolves, new languages get invented, old languages gain some new features, and all of that happens at a rapid pace.
I get super dismayed using SO and seeing the top answer predates Rust. (Note I don’t mean to say Rust is always the answer, but that Rust is already 13 years old. Things change.)
I mean there’s always gonna be new libraries or frameworks or whatever that will have their own questions to be asked. I think the problem is at a certain point you’ve reached the maximum audience you can appeal to. Which I feel StackOverflow very much has but of course corporations have to keep making greater and greater profits so once you maximize audience you have to find other methods for profit. Which is what leads to rebrand stuff like this.
How about this one then
Grab a copy of the stackoverflow database and use it locally, or train your own local LLM on the datastore.
And if you can, donate to the Internet Archive – those people do really important work in today’s age of killing off old information and constant enshittification.
Came here to say something similar about a local archive.
You can also use the app Kiwix to make it a little easier to download/search (and grab several other doc archives like Python PEP and Wikipedia)
I used Kiwix to grab a copy of Wikipedia.
Completely forgot about kiwix; I have that on my ipad and laptop, along with Dash which is like a modern day
HELPPC.COMif anyone remembers that thing…I didn’t know about Dash, but it sounds pretty great. Appears to be Mac only, though, and requires a subscription for the latest version.
Also found someone that appears to have converted HelpPC to HTML. Can’t speak to the legitimacy of it, though.
Damnnnnn, truth bombs!
Bad news. Since AI can only answer what it knows. If you have a question that is legit but not yet part of stackoverflow, you get a bad AI response.
In that case you can ask it on the stackoverflow website. But due to the fact that everybody now only rely on AI stackoverflow is dead. Well there you go, you just killed the source of truth.
I don’t know if it’s just my age/experience or some kind of innate “horse sense” But I tend to do alright with detecting shit responses, whether they be human trolls or an LLM that is lying through its virtual teeth. I don’t see that as bad news, I see it as understanding the limitations of the system. Perhaps with a reasonable prompt an LLM can be more honest about when it’s hallucinating?
I don’t know if it’s just my age/experience or some kind of innate “horse sense” But I tend to do alright with detecting shit responses, whether they be human trolls or an LLM that is lying through its virtual teeth
I’m not sure how you would do that if you are asking about something you don’t have expertise in yet, as it takes the exact same authoritative tone no matter whether the information is real.
Perhaps with a reasonable prompt an LLM can be more honest about when it’s hallucinating?
So far, research suggests this is not possible (unsurprisingly, given the nature of LLMs). Introspective outputs, such as certainty or justifications for decisions, do not map closely to the LLM’s actual internal state.
they’re gonna rebrand to ai first or turn it into an experts-exchange aren’t they?
It does feel like they’re going that way. But that’s okay. Everyone needs an Expert Sex Change every now and then.
Maybe StackOverflow is dying because its community is full of incredibly toxic, passive-aggressive and hostile basement dwellers who will berate, downvote and lock the threads of anybody who dares ask a programming question. Genuinely the kind of people you often see moderating subreddits or Discord servers who have never been punched in the face.
ChatGPT hammered the final nail in the site’s coffin because it’s now become a tool where you can ask specific programming questions and likely get an answer that isn’t “use the search bar you fucking dipshit. Question closed as off-topic.”
I’ve been contributing on SO for a decade and comments like this drive me nuts.
It was a free self moderating tool and people couldn’t even ask question properly for people to do the work for them for free. The entitlement is astonishing and to have the gal to call SO toxic just shows how undeserving some people are of any assistance.
Yes use the search bar and yes lock the thread if people can’t spend 5 minutes to form their question there is no saving of these fools. Period.
In fact my main reason for stopping to contribute was dramatic decrease of question quality not the AI. Just try to follow the new section for a day and tell me it’s not a problem, I’ll wait.
SO did go overboard at times; I’ve seen quite a few instances where posts were locked for being “duplicates” of completely unrelated problems. Oftentimes they were accompanied with unnecessarily rude messages as well.
But yes, the unwillingness of some (most?) people to use the search function baffles me. They’d prefer to write a narrative essay in SO for their FizzBuzz assignment and argue with mods rather than type a few keywords to instantly get the solution.
I’m not a programmer (last time I seriously dabbled into coding was building a website for an A Level Computing project and I had to teach myself HTML, CSS, PHP and MySQL because my sixth form was shit and was only teaching us Visual Basic 6 when the IDE/language had been obsolete for nearly a decade) and I have never personally posted on StackOverflow. In fact, the only StackExchange site I’ve ever been part of was EpicAdvice, a short-lived offshoot that was for World of Warcraft specific questions. But I do have a sibling with a computer science and software engineering background which is how I became aware of the site in the first place.
This isn’t my personal criticism of the site, it’s me echoing the sentiment of the many who have complained about the community across the web.
I too contributed fairly significantly over a long period of time, particularly on electronics.stackexchange.com. I generally just ignore the weak/low quality questions or vote them down. I might respond and ask them to fix the question if I felt charitable, but I never understood the “question nazis”.
Well it might goes both ways. People are not afraid to ask stupid questions to AI. And at the same time, AI will not judge the user.
Eh, they will complain that “ai is stupid” when the actual issue is pepple’s inability to even describe their problem. We already see this happen.
Another big problem is that we’ve been collectively trying to shoehorn everybody into programming careers for the better part of two decades. In fact, “just learn to code” is often thrown around by people in response to the prospect of AI automating and taking over everybody’s jobs.
What they don’t understand is that coding is actually very difficult, especially for people who are bad at math, which is a significant portion of the population if you look at statistics, grades, test scores, etc. Expecting a lowly paid call center worker who lost their job to AI to suddenly open up Visual Studio and write any code is a fools errand.
I bring this up because I think there’s a correllation between people asking low-quality questions and people being pushed into making a career move into tech.
coding is actually very difficult, especially for people who are bad at math
I disagree tbh. I’m a software dev with 20+ years of experience and I think most coding is not very difficult relative to other jobs. The problem is that coding requires specific motivation because the information breadth is insane compared to other professions and that becomes incredibly overwhelming for many people are not stubborn in a specific sort of way.
I think you have a point here regarding corellation between low-quality questions and people “who don’t want to be here” - that’s probably true.
Though people generally really suck at describing their issues and that goes way beyond code. LLMs are making this even more apparent because a dude who can describe everything is having a great time and others just yell “LLMs suck and have no value” so the difference is crazy.
There’s something with our society where introspection and detail is not natural and very difficult to learn for some people.
There are poor personality types everywhere, but I have found stackexchange/stackoverflow to be one of the better sources of user curated help. LLMs are a new and interesting avenue and I’ve had some good success with them too, but Stackoverflow was really, really good.
Yes. Stack overflow is a place where you can get knowledge from experts for free. The people that complain about the moderation being toxic generally think they are entitled to expert’s time without putting in any effort themselves and would drastically degrade the utility of the site if they got their way.
Here’s the thing - Stack Overflow replaced existing non-corporate less shitty places on the Internet where we experts shared knowledge for free. Stack Overflow quickly got so bad that many experts stopped sharing, but only after disrupting existing sharing communities.
People who remember what came before have a right to be angry that SO embraced and extinguished the free (and advertising free) forums and IRC channels that came before it.
(SO was better in many ways. But it also killed off something more resilient. I hope we can someday rebuild some of what we had, outside of the long corporate line-must-go-up shadow. I don’t know if we will or not.)
I fully agree. Ai is hallucinate answers & solutions. Maybe very simple questions or programming issues can be solved by AI. But more complex, or very language specific or use case specific questions not.
And the result could be catastrophic when relying on AI too much.
They took on a very strict ruleset to avoid clutter and chaos.
Found the person that asks shitty questions
Found the shitty moderator
Alas, I’m just a person who only had positive experiences in stack overflow and know the type of entitled dumbasses who think they should be able to ask volunteers to do their homework for them
Wow amazing stuff
Stack Overflow, like Reddit, derives its value entirely from its users—it’s just a host. Now that users (and their knowledge) are moving elsewhere, the platform’s importance is fading.
It’s odd when people worry about Stack Overflow’s decline. Online communities have always shifted: from BBSs and newsgroups to forums, chat, Yahoo Groups, Reddit, and Stack Overflow. Each had its time.
The next gathering spot for tech-savvy users might be the fediverse, but who knows at this point. AI isn’t solely to blame for the shift—people moved to Stack Overflow because it was better than what came before. Now, as it declines in quality thanks to general enshittification of services as companies try to monetise uaers, they’re moving on again.
Yep users move over time. Its the natural order of things. I disagree with the article that moving away from SO is "bad news for developers " as long as we have something better in the works. It looks like Discord is the thing everyone is jumping on, which kinda sucks.
but do we have something better? I’m not sure…
Discord is corpo slop…
how is that any better?which kinda sucks
but without the kinda
“Which is bad news for developers”
Nah, we’ve been through lots of iterations of community for developers, irc, maillists, forums, stackoverflow, etc. Most of my complex questions go through specific discord communities now. I’m not trying to spend a year editing a single post because some swamp ass weanie on stackoverflow has his nose covered in rule dust.
Yes ai has changed the game a bit, but it is not removing community, it’s mostly just cutting down on the question duplication
My most recent foray into a new technology was working with vulkan in rust on a mac, stackoverflow is useless compared to the vulkan discord.
fuck discord. this is the only thing I want to add to the other 2 responses
and mind me, matrix wouldn’t be that much better in that regard. better, but still bad, because it’s a bad format for this.
Down side of discord is huge. It’s not searchable to start with / its not index. Often it’s not even public information.
It’s like storing data on your personal hard drive/ssd. It’s the worst way to share knowledge.
RIP permanence and discoverability
That graph tells a story.
