“at average” is waaaaay to vauge and can mean so many different things…
Something that large I’m assuming you’re using something like comparing 50 year old men to 50 year old women. Where some women that have spent a decade or two out of the workforce raising children. Or even something that ignores industry/position.
If corporations could pay 15% less to a woman than a man with the same experience and qualifications…
Part of the gender pay gap is because women have to leave their careers to raise children. Either because of societal expectations or the father is not present. Same pay for same work is all well and good when you have only one to think about.
Add the loss of income at that time, to the loss of experience and chance to advance. Then add discrimination and sexism.
I’ve seen many men in my current career take paternity leave though. I’ve also worked with a single dad. I’m not saying these aren’t a struggle but they aren’t wholey unique to women. If anything, women are legally protected while pregnant, a guy is not of he starts to struggle with a child birth.
I’m open to the idea what women make less or whatever, I’d just wanna see the numbers because this line of reasoning doesn’t really seem that persuasive.
I’ve also seen women with no children with both low and high salaries. The point is not what is possible to happen, but what tends to happen. Women get childcare imposed on them at the cost of their careers and income.
Then there is also the problem that jobs traditionally taken by women are paid less than men. So, again, a man working as a nurse or in childcare is paid less also, but the level of education and work required for these roles is not commensurate with the pay for similar roles for men, like in trades.
Women get childcare imposed on them at the cost of their careers and income.
OK, I can acknowledge that. That’s a struggle. I feel that man are often shouldered with financially providing for the child. But different struggles, all that should be sorted out before becoming pregnant if possible.
Nurses take schooling, and men get paid less. Trades take schooling, and men get paid more. It seems like there is just general inequality that needs do be addressed. Not saying has it harder or not, just seems like it’s a spead and should be addressed in general.
Men are shouldered with the financial struggle? Do you mean in a couple with a relationship? So, from your hypothesis, both parents have pressure placed in them by having children. In men’s case it’s to their financial benefit and for women it’s to their financial detriment. Does that not make society sexist in your view? This kind of sexism is what is called structural inequality. It leads to lower wages for women. However, as much as that is an issue, there is also an issue of women getting paid less for the same work. That also happens but can be harder to measure
Yes, everyone on the system can choose to partake differently but they are swimming against the tide tondo so.
It’s to men’s financial benefit to have to provide? Having to work jobs that pay what you need doing things you hate because the career you really want doesn’t pay enough to raise a kid?
I feel like you have a very one sided view of this situation. I could say the woman at home could also have time to educate herself and grow while the man could be stuck in a dead end factory job working himself to death to provide. Or maybe even working two jobs. But you just see it as the guy works more so that must mean he’s doing better. No.
And yes, there is women getting paid less for the same work. But as you even admitted, there are some men who get paid less for the same work too. I’ve also seen women who are nice and pretty get promoted over more qualified men. The same way I’ve seen guys who are buddy buddy get promotions over well qualified women. But you seem to be only looking at one side of the problem. Both struggle in different ways is my point. We should address those struggles, all of them, and not just focus on one side.
I don’t know if you’re purposely missing the point. Some of the world’s wealthiest people are billionaire women. That doesn’t mean sexism doesn’t exist. Lots of women having high paid jobs doesn’t mean there aren’t more women than men being paid for the same work, or for similar amounts of effort.
You talk about me wing one sided while thinking women doing fully time child care would have time to study to advance their career? Lol, no.
Children take a large amount of time and resources to raise. The way society is set up, women are expected and obliged to sacrifice time, men are expected to provide resources. In the mens case, this means pressure to advance, through promotion or a higher paid role. For women the pressure is to cut down on work and responsibilities at work to the detriment of their long term career.
You talk about men having to sacrifice a preferred career ro take a better paid one. How do you think it goes for the woman’s preferred career while full time caring for kids? The end result is both parties would lose their preferred careers but in the man’s case he ends up wealthier.
Lots of women having high paid jobs doesn’t mean there aren’t more women than men being paid for the same work, or for similar amounts of effort.
I agree, I literally said “yes, there are women getting paid less for the same work” so I don’t know why you still think I’m missing the point. I’ve acknowledged that reality. I believe it’s you missing the point, honestly. Yes, there are tons of women who are paid more than men, it doesn’t mean there aren’t tons of men who get paid less than women too. That’s why I ended saying “We should address those struggles, all of them, and not just focus on one side.”
You talk about me wing one sided while thinking women doing fully time child care would have time to study to advance their career? Lol, no.
Lol yes. I mean, we just going to forget dads who raise children I guess.
Children take a large amount of time and resources to raise.
Yes, and there are men who raise children, too.
The way society is set up, women are expected and obliged to sacrifice time, men are expected to provide resources. In the mens case, this means pressure to advance, through promotion or a higher paid role. For women the pressure is to cut down on work and responsibilities at work to the detriment of their long term career.
This is a cop out. We are all adults and make our own decisions. Society isn’t forcing someone to stay home. You have a partner and you plan your life, doing what is right for you. Using what society expects as an excuse is just that, an excuse.
The mother could go back to work and the man could stay home just as easily. It is a choice made by the couple, framing it as anything else is dishonest.
You talk about men having to sacrifice a preferred career ro take a better paid one. How do you think it goes for the woman’s preferred career while full time caring for kids? The end result is both parties would lose their preferred careers but in the man’s case he ends up wealthier.
Yes, wealthier. That’s the only difference? Really? Sure, with possibly years taken off his life, and miserable every day. See, that’s what I mean, you only look at it from one side. You don’t seem to even think about the reality that the man could literally be working himself to death, or that he works all day to support children he never sees, or that he forces himself to work if he’s sick or injured so the family can survive. You think “well he has more money so he’s better.” Really? A man working two jobs and knows nothing else, too tired to enjoy life, is doing worse than the stay-at-home mom raising the child and getting to see them grow? Yes, it’s still a hard job to be a stay-at-home mom, but let’s not pretend like it’s the same. Have you ever actually thought about the other side of this situation before, because it seems like you haven’t?
Either way, at the end of the day, the couple makes their own choices for them and no one else. Any societal pressures or BS like that should be shot down on both sides.
“at average” is waaaaay to vauge and can mean so many different things…
Something that large I’m assuming you’re using something like comparing 50 year old men to 50 year old women. Where some women that have spent a decade or two out of the workforce raising children. Or even something that ignores industry/position.
If corporations could pay 15% less to a woman than a man with the same experience and qualifications…
They’d only hire women.
Part of the gender pay gap is because women have to leave their careers to raise children. Either because of societal expectations or the father is not present. Same pay for same work is all well and good when you have only one to think about.
Add the loss of income at that time, to the loss of experience and chance to advance. Then add discrimination and sexism.
I’ve seen many men in my current career take paternity leave though. I’ve also worked with a single dad. I’m not saying these aren’t a struggle but they aren’t wholey unique to women. If anything, women are legally protected while pregnant, a guy is not of he starts to struggle with a child birth.
I’m open to the idea what women make less or whatever, I’d just wanna see the numbers because this line of reasoning doesn’t really seem that persuasive.
I’ve also seen women with no children with both low and high salaries. The point is not what is possible to happen, but what tends to happen. Women get childcare imposed on them at the cost of their careers and income.
Then there is also the problem that jobs traditionally taken by women are paid less than men. So, again, a man working as a nurse or in childcare is paid less also, but the level of education and work required for these roles is not commensurate with the pay for similar roles for men, like in trades.
OK, I can acknowledge that. That’s a struggle. I feel that man are often shouldered with financially providing for the child. But different struggles, all that should be sorted out before becoming pregnant if possible.
Nurses take schooling, and men get paid less. Trades take schooling, and men get paid more. It seems like there is just general inequality that needs do be addressed. Not saying has it harder or not, just seems like it’s a spead and should be addressed in general.
Men are shouldered with the financial struggle? Do you mean in a couple with a relationship? So, from your hypothesis, both parents have pressure placed in them by having children. In men’s case it’s to their financial benefit and for women it’s to their financial detriment. Does that not make society sexist in your view? This kind of sexism is what is called structural inequality. It leads to lower wages for women. However, as much as that is an issue, there is also an issue of women getting paid less for the same work. That also happens but can be harder to measure
Yes, everyone on the system can choose to partake differently but they are swimming against the tide tondo so.
It’s to men’s financial benefit to have to provide? Having to work jobs that pay what you need doing things you hate because the career you really want doesn’t pay enough to raise a kid?
I feel like you have a very one sided view of this situation. I could say the woman at home could also have time to educate herself and grow while the man could be stuck in a dead end factory job working himself to death to provide. Or maybe even working two jobs. But you just see it as the guy works more so that must mean he’s doing better. No.
And yes, there is women getting paid less for the same work. But as you even admitted, there are some men who get paid less for the same work too. I’ve also seen women who are nice and pretty get promoted over more qualified men. The same way I’ve seen guys who are buddy buddy get promotions over well qualified women. But you seem to be only looking at one side of the problem. Both struggle in different ways is my point. We should address those struggles, all of them, and not just focus on one side.
I don’t know if you’re purposely missing the point. Some of the world’s wealthiest people are billionaire women. That doesn’t mean sexism doesn’t exist. Lots of women having high paid jobs doesn’t mean there aren’t more women than men being paid for the same work, or for similar amounts of effort.
You talk about me wing one sided while thinking women doing fully time child care would have time to study to advance their career? Lol, no.
Children take a large amount of time and resources to raise. The way society is set up, women are expected and obliged to sacrifice time, men are expected to provide resources. In the mens case, this means pressure to advance, through promotion or a higher paid role. For women the pressure is to cut down on work and responsibilities at work to the detriment of their long term career.
You talk about men having to sacrifice a preferred career ro take a better paid one. How do you think it goes for the woman’s preferred career while full time caring for kids? The end result is both parties would lose their preferred careers but in the man’s case he ends up wealthier.
I agree, I literally said “yes, there are women getting paid less for the same work” so I don’t know why you still think I’m missing the point. I’ve acknowledged that reality. I believe it’s you missing the point, honestly. Yes, there are tons of women who are paid more than men, it doesn’t mean there aren’t tons of men who get paid less than women too. That’s why I ended saying “We should address those struggles, all of them, and not just focus on one side.”
Lol yes. I mean, we just going to forget dads who raise children I guess.
Yes, and there are men who raise children, too.
This is a cop out. We are all adults and make our own decisions. Society isn’t forcing someone to stay home. You have a partner and you plan your life, doing what is right for you. Using what society expects as an excuse is just that, an excuse.
The mother could go back to work and the man could stay home just as easily. It is a choice made by the couple, framing it as anything else is dishonest.
Yes, wealthier. That’s the only difference? Really? Sure, with possibly years taken off his life, and miserable every day. See, that’s what I mean, you only look at it from one side. You don’t seem to even think about the reality that the man could literally be working himself to death, or that he works all day to support children he never sees, or that he forces himself to work if he’s sick or injured so the family can survive. You think “well he has more money so he’s better.” Really? A man working two jobs and knows nothing else, too tired to enjoy life, is doing worse than the stay-at-home mom raising the child and getting to see them grow? Yes, it’s still a hard job to be a stay-at-home mom, but let’s not pretend like it’s the same. Have you ever actually thought about the other side of this situation before, because it seems like you haven’t?
Either way, at the end of the day, the couple makes their own choices for them and no one else. Any societal pressures or BS like that should be shot down on both sides.
Easy, half of the products have a difference of -10% between men and women, the other half is +10%
I was referencing the first sentence.
I think you’re talking about the second