“Saving” is a legacy that was introduced because of limitations related to storage in the early days of computing and makes no inherent sense within the metaphors most software operate. Broken metaphors makes things difficult to learn.
When was the last time you scribbled onto a physical document and the changes “didn’t save”? Do you also hate “autosave” in the physical world?
I’m not sure if comparing the digital world to the physical world would bring the desired impact you expect it to. Storage is still at a premium and will be, no matter if it’s a txt file or some heavy duty 3d rendering or graphical processing.
Comparing to the physical world makes no sense because a computer is an enhancement that does things differently.
I want way to make trial and error scenarios and test ideas and scribble notes without being forced to keep the changes or retain a document. I also prefer to know where it is going.
I have some software that crashes and leaves me in this weird state where: auto save, recovery file, test sceberio. Which one was I using? Which will it choose to restore and how fucked am I now that the original is lost if I choose wrong?
Edit: I am going to say that on the other hand, in business it is wild that we give people a desktop computer when we should be giving them programs that they use. They should have metadata attached, be relative to their work, and have auto save. I am not always against auto save, it just needs to be in the appropriate places.
Comparing with the physical world makes sense when we have built these applications on physical world metaphors: “documents”, “folders”, “desktop”, etc. We use those words precisely because they convey meaning based on the similarities with their real-world counterparts. Broken metaphors are both more difficult to learn and tend to trigger incorrect assumptions leading to operator error (“Didn’t you save your document? What does that mean?”).
What is worse is that, like it or not, the world is increasingly moving towards cloud services. The “edit + save” paradigm is less suited to that environment, so there we almost exclusively see the “you edit the doc itself (no need to save)” paradigm. It is difficult to see the gain of insisting on keeping both these quite different paradigms around, when the “you edit the doc directly” is no problem to implement also offline.
Now, about the practicalities: I also get fundamentally annoyed when presented with the “document recovery” dialog that brings me out of my flow. However, I interprete the situation differently. Had the software used a “you edit the doc, no need to save” paradigm, there would never be a need for “recovery”. The edits I did are stored in the file I edited.
As for “I just want to scribble”. Why don’t you just scribble in a file called “Scribbles”? Why is that concept so offensive? You’ll be happy the day your computer loses power while you are in the midst of scribbling, since you will be able to pick up exactly where you were.
Didn’t you save your document? What does that mean?
It means I want to keep it. I don’t think that is a broken metaphor at all.
As for “I just want to scribble”. Why don’t you just scribble in a file called “Scribbles”?
Wait a minute: in the real world I do not need to name anything to make scribbles. I also do not have a paradigm where there is a fork between versions and create a new document that goes off in one direction while the other document goes in another. At the end of the other documents time, why can’t I just get rid of it if my what if scenario didn’t work out? Oh I have to now find the thing and take even more time to figure out how to get rid of it. I also have to choose where to keep something if it is going to auto save, and I work on multiple computers all around the world so it makes no sense for me to expect it to “save somewhere”.
Also, when I am working on what if scenarios, they are not scribbles. They are taking a document that sometimes can take several minutes to load, and might take many minutes to process. They might be excel sheets, they might by python pandas projects, they might be painting projects or 3d renders.
I have no need for cloud services either, that sucks as well. I have my own server, my own world wide storage locations. I would like to decide when I where I put stuff.
Didn’t you save your document? What does that mean?
It means I want to keep it. I don’t think that is a broken metaphor at all.
It will not come natural to people who are used to work with physical documents that you need to remember to “save” an edit, or the document reverts back to the state it was when you opened it.
in the real world I do not need to name anything to make scribbles.
No, but you need to have a physical document to scribble on, which, after you have scribbled will remain in the state you left it until you take the active decision to throw it away.
I also do not have a paradigm where there is a fork between versions and create a new document that goes off in one direction while the other document goes in another.
Have you never used a copy machine?
At the end of the other documents time, why can’t I just get rid of it if my what if scenario didn’t work out?
Just throw it in the recycle bin? Another real-life metaphor. Do you often find objects in your physical world disappearing without no action from you?
I also have to choose where to keep something if it is going to auto save
Following the typical cloud implementation, you do not. Just start editing. It will be placed in a default folder under a default name until you rename it / and or move it somewhere else. (These operations are usually provided in more convenient ways than in “save paradigm” software, e.g., the name is shown as a title, just click to change it)
They are taking a document that sometimes can take several minutes to load, and might take many minutes to process. They might be excel sheets, they might by python pandas projects, they might be painting projects or 3d renders.
All of these – except the Python Pandas project (see below) – could still (and probably should) work according to a “you edit the doc itself, no need to save” paradigm. The larger the underlying file, the less sense does it make to forcibly have to work on a copy; either in RAM (if it fits) or if it doesn’t fit, the software has to create an on-disk copy of your huge file behind your back, in case you decide to not save. Leading to all these messy “recovery semantics” that no one likes.
Now, the context of this whole thread is IMO GUI software. When it comes to programming/programmatic tools, e.g. Python Pandas, R, Matlab, etc., that is a different thing. There you have a choice to work in RAM or on disk depending on your needs.
It will be placed in a default folder under a default name until you rename it / and or move it somewhere else.
What a nightmare.
Why don’t we just let things default to not auto save but you can turn it on at anytime.
I personally hate it. Absolutely hate it.
I want to put things where I want them the first time when I am ready. I don’t use cloud services, I have my own network and cloud file shares. I don’t want some program choosing when and where to save something for me, because it is extra work finding all these garbage files I didn’t ask for.
No, please no. I hate auto save. I don’t mind choosing to turn it on, sometimes it’s warranted, but to have it forced on? Fuck that.
“Saving” is a legacy that was introduced because of limitations related to storage in the early days of computing and makes no inherent sense within the metaphors most software operate. Broken metaphors makes things difficult to learn.
When was the last time you scribbled onto a physical document and the changes “didn’t save”? Do you also hate “autosave” in the physical world?
I’m not sure if comparing the digital world to the physical world would bring the desired impact you expect it to. Storage is still at a premium and will be, no matter if it’s a txt file or some heavy duty 3d rendering or graphical processing.
Comparing to the physical world makes no sense because a computer is an enhancement that does things differently.
I want way to make trial and error scenarios and test ideas and scribble notes without being forced to keep the changes or retain a document. I also prefer to know where it is going.
I have some software that crashes and leaves me in this weird state where: auto save, recovery file, test sceberio. Which one was I using? Which will it choose to restore and how fucked am I now that the original is lost if I choose wrong?
Edit: I am going to say that on the other hand, in business it is wild that we give people a desktop computer when we should be giving them programs that they use. They should have metadata attached, be relative to their work, and have auto save. I am not always against auto save, it just needs to be in the appropriate places.
Comparing with the physical world makes sense when we have built these applications on physical world metaphors: “documents”, “folders”, “desktop”, etc. We use those words precisely because they convey meaning based on the similarities with their real-world counterparts. Broken metaphors are both more difficult to learn and tend to trigger incorrect assumptions leading to operator error (“Didn’t you save your document? What does that mean?”).
What is worse is that, like it or not, the world is increasingly moving towards cloud services. The “edit + save” paradigm is less suited to that environment, so there we almost exclusively see the “you edit the doc itself (no need to save)” paradigm. It is difficult to see the gain of insisting on keeping both these quite different paradigms around, when the “you edit the doc directly” is no problem to implement also offline.
Now, about the practicalities: I also get fundamentally annoyed when presented with the “document recovery” dialog that brings me out of my flow. However, I interprete the situation differently. Had the software used a “you edit the doc, no need to save” paradigm, there would never be a need for “recovery”. The edits I did are stored in the file I edited.
As for “I just want to scribble”. Why don’t you just scribble in a file called “Scribbles”? Why is that concept so offensive? You’ll be happy the day your computer loses power while you are in the midst of scribbling, since you will be able to pick up exactly where you were.
It means I want to keep it. I don’t think that is a broken metaphor at all.
Wait a minute: in the real world I do not need to name anything to make scribbles. I also do not have a paradigm where there is a fork between versions and create a new document that goes off in one direction while the other document goes in another. At the end of the other documents time, why can’t I just get rid of it if my what if scenario didn’t work out? Oh I have to now find the thing and take even more time to figure out how to get rid of it. I also have to choose where to keep something if it is going to auto save, and I work on multiple computers all around the world so it makes no sense for me to expect it to “save somewhere”.
Also, when I am working on what if scenarios, they are not scribbles. They are taking a document that sometimes can take several minutes to load, and might take many minutes to process. They might be excel sheets, they might by python pandas projects, they might be painting projects or 3d renders.
I have no need for cloud services either, that sucks as well. I have my own server, my own world wide storage locations. I would like to decide when I where I put stuff.
It will not come natural to people who are used to work with physical documents that you need to remember to “save” an edit, or the document reverts back to the state it was when you opened it.
No, but you need to have a physical document to scribble on, which, after you have scribbled will remain in the state you left it until you take the active decision to throw it away.
Have you never used a copy machine?
Just throw it in the recycle bin? Another real-life metaphor. Do you often find objects in your physical world disappearing without no action from you?
Following the typical cloud implementation, you do not. Just start editing. It will be placed in a default folder under a default name until you rename it / and or move it somewhere else. (These operations are usually provided in more convenient ways than in “save paradigm” software, e.g., the name is shown as a title, just click to change it)
All of these – except the Python Pandas project (see below) – could still (and probably should) work according to a “you edit the doc itself, no need to save” paradigm. The larger the underlying file, the less sense does it make to forcibly have to work on a copy; either in RAM (if it fits) or if it doesn’t fit, the software has to create an on-disk copy of your huge file behind your back, in case you decide to not save. Leading to all these messy “recovery semantics” that no one likes.
Now, the context of this whole thread is IMO GUI software. When it comes to programming/programmatic tools, e.g. Python Pandas, R, Matlab, etc., that is a different thing. There you have a choice to work in RAM or on disk depending on your needs.
What a nightmare.
Why don’t we just let things default to not auto save but you can turn it on at anytime.
I personally hate it. Absolutely hate it.
I want to put things where I want them the first time when I am ready. I don’t use cloud services, I have my own network and cloud file shares. I don’t want some program choosing when and where to save something for me, because it is extra work finding all these garbage files I didn’t ask for.