Quadruple moderation is killing Lemmy. It’s a gift to Reddit
There’s a rule about online communities I want people here to understand: the 90-9-1 rule.
Roughly 90% lurk, 9% comment, and 1% create.
When I first got to Lemmy, I had trouble finding enough content I was interested in even commenting on. So I figured: why complain about the lack of content when I can start posting it myself?
That’s why I post so much.
If people don’t post, most Lemmy communities simply don’t have enough creators to sustain themselves. You need posts before lurkers can lurk, commenters can comment, and some of those people eventually become creators themselves.
I’m not posting just to flood Lemmy. I’m trying to help solve one of Lemmy’s biggest problems: not enough content creators.
And frankly, doing that has been a nightmare.
Lemmy has a quadruple-moderation problem
Every active content creator has to survive four layers:
- Community moderators can remove your posts or ban you from the community.
- Your home-instance admins can ban your entire account.
- Receiving-instance admins can block/ban you for everyone on their instance, even though you don’t belong to it.
- Public moderation history means those decisions follow you. One moderator’s decision can influence another and snowball into more moderation.
For prolific content creators, that’s brutal.
I’ve had multiple accounts banned over one or two posts that somebody didn’t like. Months of posting, comments, engagement and contributions can effectively disappear from a community because of a couple of moderation decisions.
And the more you contribute, the worse the odds become. If you make hundreds or thousands of posts, eventually you’re going to post something that one moderator somewhere doesn’t like.
You don’t need one moderation team to tolerate you. You need multiple independent moderators and admins, across multiple servers, to remain aligned indefinitely.
There’s almost no cost to deleting a creator
This is another major difference from Reddit.
There is generally no financial investment in a Lemmy community’s content. A volunteer moderator can ban someone who contributed months of posts and comments and lose all of that person’s future contributions without losing revenue, salary or investment.
The creator paid the cost in time.
The community loses the content.
The users lose something to read and discuss.
And the moderator who pushed the button may personally lose essentially nothing.
So who benefits from making prolific content creation this difficult?
Because it certainly isn’t Lemmy.
And this creates an enormous attack surface
I genuinely have trouble believing that everyone complaining about prolific posters simply doesn’t understand this dynamic. At some point I have to question whether some of it is deliberate.
If I were Reddit and wanted to undermine a federated competitor, this is exactly where I’d attack it: its content creators.
You don’t need to hack Lemmy. You don’t need to DDoS instances. You don’t need to take anything offline.
Lemmy already provides the mechanism.
Report prolific contributors. Call their posting “spam.” accuse them of being bots. Point moderators toward their public moderation histories. Get one account banned somewhere, then let that decision influence moderators elsewhere.
Eventually the creator gets tired of fighting and leaves.
I’m not claiming I have proof Reddit is doing this. I’m saying Lemmy’s architecture makes this kind of subversion ridiculously easy, and Reddit would be an obvious beneficiary.
Reddit doesn’t have this same federated quadruple-jeopardy problem. You’re primarily dealing with the moderation of the subreddit you’re contributing to.
Lemmy desperately needs more people creating content, yet its moderation structure makes life progressively harder for the people who create the most of it.
At some point we should be asking:
Who actually benefits from that?
- Public moderation history means those decisions follow you. One moderator’s decision can influence another and snowball into more moderation.
This has got to be the first time I’ve seen the modlog listed as a negative aspect of lemmy?
Strictly speaking, it’s not the first time. We’ve had issues with the specific way the modlog works, before. But usually that’s edge-cases. Not someone questioning transparency and accountability be part of the platform in itself…
OMG - the modlog functionality is severely lacking.
But it’s infinitely better than reddit’s modlog.
if there is no independent dispute process, and no accountability and removal process for abusive moderators - modlog should not be public in my opinion. Just too easy to exploit and influence
That’s a known issue. There might be some improvements for you with the upcoming version 1.0. I’m not sure if that’s gradual improvement or more fundamental changes… But many parts of the moderation system aren’t perfect and everyone is aware of its limitations. I think you’re invited to help out if you can contribute code, come up with a specification that works smoothly in real-life (including edge-cases), become a mod and do a better job at it than the current ones, or anything like that.
The modlog itself isn’t the problem. A public modlog combined with effectively no simple straightforward appeals process is the problem.
A moderator can ban you, put a reason in the public record, and there is no built-in independent process to challenge it, present evidence, or have the decision reviewed. That entry can then be seen by the next moderator, who may treat the previous ban as evidence that you’re a problem.
So the reality is pretty brutal:
Ban → public record → no meaningful appeal → next moderator sees the ban → increased chance of another ban.
Transparency is good. An irreversible public accusation with no real mechanism to dispute it is not.
I think modlogs should not be accessible to public unless there is a simple dispute process and accountability for abusive moderators also baked in. some jury, something
let’s post moar \o/
Putting my thought on your original point at the top: “A plea to admins: protect your creators ban reddit agents instead”
All I can say is: Admins are already doing this to the best of their ability, for better or worse. Some admins moderate proportionally, some others don’t. It’s really a question of whether they appreciate your methods or not.
I also crosspost from Reddit, but specifically those that I would have posted/shared myself if I found it anywhere else.
A few other bots crosspost everything that goes in a subreddit in their own community. What do I see? Only the bots can post i.e. it’s a subreddit mirror. No one comments in it. In other words, it’s glorified spam that no one looks at. At best, it occupies space in lemmy instances. The reader is even required to go to Reddit to read the post itself. Knowing Lemmy, no one wants to bother doing that. Example: !pcmasterrace@zerobytes.monster. I see the new posts as a literal digital deluge that I can’t keep up with. I have better things to do.
I’m assuming here you want to populate Lemmy with a genuine desire to see it as a sustainable ecosystem. For general communities like the top communities you see in lemmy.world, the critical mass has already been reached. Force-increasing its monthly users will only do harm than good. Look up Eternal September to better understand where I’m coming from here.
What I suggest you can do is curate a small number of a subreddit’s best posts for the past 24 hours, copy its content, and crosspost them in an existing federated community. Consent from the community’s mods is important. Transparency (which includes posting as a bot account if this is automated) is also important. If your approach is unwanted by them, move on. That’s just how reality works. Also, respecting their decisions will do your reputation a favor and build trust in the long run.
Seems you post a lot of duplicates. No wonder your posts get deleted if you keep spamming exactly the same post multiple times??? And then you violate community rules… After that you seem to be doing ban-evasion… I mean… Seems to me like Lemmy is working exactly as intended?! This isn’t a place to dump random spam posts? You gotta learn what this place is about. If you want to redecorate our place and make it about something else, you’re going to face some backlash.
When I started using federated social media I had to block a lot of people* who just mindlessly churned out posts with links to often dubious news articles etc. It became much better after that.
And often they see themselves as knights in shining armor that “help the fediverse lift off”.
It’s just another version of the terminally online forum regular.
* judging by the usernames, often the same person using accounts on different instances
If you’re going to repost someone’s picture from Reddit that they tagged as “OC” (Original Content), at least don’t copy the title verbatim and mislead people into thinking your repost is OC…
https://ani.social/post/35620231
https://www.reddit.com/r/interestingasfuck/comments/1vn59fb/shark_fin_eclipse_sunset_mallorca_es_oc/
in my opinion - lemmy is just trying to be defederated reddit. I think it would be mistake to think of it any other way.
from that perspective - I see no problem with reposting highly upvoted reddit content, absolutely every major social network recycles content from other network. Only lemmy seems to be pointing that out as a problem for some reason.I mostly agree with your post, but come on. If it’s OC, it should be credited appropriately.
I pull some stuff from Reddit to repost, but I always pull from the source and not Reddit itself. Lemmy doesn’t need to be an exact clone of Reddit to succeed. We should be crediting creators where possible.
If it’s OC, it should be credited appropriately.
see Velma- problem is people complain if I put links back to reddit. (I used to do that)
many communities dont want to credit reddit thats why I stopped doing that.lemmy has double identity issue - nobody can agree on one pattern.
It would probably help if your AI can check if a post is labeled as OC (I guess a simple local language model should be enough for something this trivial, maybe some edge case detection for manual review) and re-label it as a repost.
This is literally the first time anyone has raised the OC labeling issue with me. And yes, that’s easy to fix. I can add a check for OC labels and either reject those posts or correctly mark them as reposts.
This is exactly the kind of feedback I’d rather get: identify a concrete problem and I’ll fix the tooling, instead of jumping straight to “ban the account.”
I agree. That said, I’d imagine it would be easier to start new communities - and probably a new instance to host said communities - than to change things by complaining here. That’s the part of what makes the Fediverse great, after all.
Ignore people complaining is the best advice I can give on Lemmy after being here for a while.
Instead of trying to post in communities with shit-ass mods (looking at you JonsJava), find communities that have more reasonable mods and build up there. You have to find the people that appreciate your posts which is frustrating sometimes, but so much better than trying to deal with mods that love the smell of their own farts.
I think it should be done per community. if community wants to credit reddit with a link - I will absolutely comply.
Nobody. Unless you had the capability/knowledge/will to maintain your own instance, which makes your content and yourself unbreakable.
im considering that. but I think it would be the fifth jeopardy. they can complain to get your instance defederated
So what? It still exists on the web. People can visit you, enjoy your content. Make a stand.
I’ve had multiple accounts banned over one or two posts that somebody didn’t like. Months of posting, comments, engagement and contributions can effectively disappear from a community because of a couple of moderation decisions.
And the more you contribute, the worse the odds become. If you make hundreds or thousands of posts, eventually you’re going to post something that one moderator somewhere doesn’t like.
You don’t need one moderation team to tolerate you. You need multiple independent moderators and admins, across multiple servers, to remain aligned indefinitely.
This is why free speech (or at least free speech adjacent) instances are important. They don’t ban people nearly as frivolously. Build your communities on instances that are not hosted by bullies.
Although, I will say, your premise is a bit flawed here. Having more moderation isn’t the problem, the problem is the type of moderators that are here on Lemmy. A lot of them are the same hall monitor types that were on Reddit, but even more strict!
Build your communities on instances that are not hosted by bullies.
its unfortunately would have to come to this and I was hoping it wont come to this.
I have money to start my isntance, but not time.
I was hoping It would not come to this.
Additionally sounds like I would be immediately defederated by majority of instances because they are so easily influenced by abusive moderation.Although, I will say, your premise is a bit flawed here. Having more moderation isn’t the problem, the problem is the type of moderators that are here on Lemmy. A lot of them are the same hall monitor types that were on Reddit, but even more strict!
dude. so true. this is objectively worse moderation than reddit.
A few months ago I read a comment which stuck with me, which is that if you try to break that 9:1 ratio by artificially increasing the amount of posts, by simply copying them from elsewhere, you don’t end up with a better community. You end up with an empty community.
The reason the “link to article with comments below” format has worked so well for a huge variety of sites (including reddit, lemmy, digg, slashdot, hackernews at much more) is that people like discussing things. The point of linking content isn’t just to link it, but also to discuss it. Without that, a lot of the point is gone. When I see a community where all the latest posts have zero comments under them it doesn’t fill me with joy that the fediverse is getting more active - it fills me with despair that no-one’s engaging with it.
Lemmy has quite a lot of posts already. If you want to help Lemmy, don’t post more - post a comment. Something you yourself actually think.
But this completely ignores the other 90%. honestly - this is to my point - Icant believe so many people are so ignorant, god help you in life if you are not an agent.
You’re looking at a post with zero comments and concluding “nobody engaged.” You have no idea how many people read it, clicked the article, watched the video, voted, or simply enjoyed seeing it.
That’s what lurkers do. They lurk.
And there’s a pretty obvious contradiction in saying “don’t post, comment instead.” Comment on what? Someone still has to supply the posts that start those discussions.
Yes, 20 great posts with active discussion are better than 2,000 garbage posts. Nobody is arguing otherwise. But an empty community doesn’t magically produce great conversations because we nobly refused to post anything until somebody had an original thought.
Posts create opportunities for discussion. Comments create community. You need both.
And who are you who are so wise in the ways of lurkers? You don’t know what they want either. I know what I want though.
And there’s a pretty obvious contradiction in saying “don’t post, comment instead.” Comment on what? Someone still has to supply the posts that start those discussions.
OK genius, how many posts were there on Lemmy yesterday, not including yours? How many of your posts did you comment on, other than to defend your spam?
god help you in life if you are not an agent.
The fact that you accuse everyone who disagrees with you of taking part in a conspiracy should tell us everything we need to know, and it’s why you won’t be hearing from me again after this.
The unstated logic here is simply that you cannot think of a reason why someone would disagree on this except if they were engaging in some kind of secret skullduggery. That’s a lack of imagination on your part. You need to spend some time - away from the keyboard, I mean - actually thinking about why such a great weight of people (all of whom seem to be quite active on Lemmy) say that you’re contributing negatively. You have no direct evidence for your current guess. Maybe you can think real hard about what those people might be thinking, even if what they think differs from what you think.
I’ve got my own guess what’s going on in your noggin, but in my experience people don’t appreciate hearing such guesses so I’ll keep it to myself.
In the meantime, because that thought process, if you do engage with it, will take actual time (like, months), here’s my advice: limit yourself to posting one post from other social media per day. Pick something that made you think, or made you laugh, so that you can also comment on it and start the discussion.
how many posts were there on Lemmy yesterday?
This is kind of incredible because you’ve submitted 3 posts in 11 months.
You’re basically demonstrating my argument for me.
You prefer commenting. Great. That’s valuable. But those comments exist because somebody else did the work of supplying something for you to comment on.
That’s the 90-9-1 dynamic I’m talking about. I’m not claiming to psychically know what every lurker wants. I’m pointing out that consumption massively outweighs contribution on social platforms, and your own posting history is a pretty great example.
And your solution is that I should limit myself to one post per day, while you contribute roughly one every four months?
If everyone followed your posting rate, this place would be a fucking archaeological site.
As for the “Reddit agent” stuff, I’ve repeatedly said I don’t think everyone who disagrees with me is an agent. I think coordinated manipulation is quite likely and Lemmy is structurally vulnerable to it. You’re free to think that’s ridiculous.
But maybe spend a little less time diagnosing what’s going on in my “noggin” and a little more time considering the irony of telling someone posting too much is killing Lemmy when you’ve posted three times in almost a year.
take your saviour complex to your own instance or community.
Somehow Reddit manages to survive with that ratio of engagement.
Exactly. Reddit barely survives with that ratio because the tiny percentage who post generate enough content for everyone else.
That’s literally my point.
You have 3 posts in 11 months and you’re telling someone else to post once a day. If everyone contributed at your rate, there’d be almost nothing here to comment on.
Reddit has millions of users, so 1% is enormous. Lemmy has ~35k MAU. Its 1% is tiny.
You can’t copy Reddit’s participation ratio while missing Reddit’s scale and expect the same result.
If all 35,000 MAU posted at your rate of 3 posts/year, all of Lemmy would generate about 288 posts per day.
just for the record - my accounts post more daily (>300 posts) than entire lemmy if everyone of 35k users were like you - 3 posts a year.
If all 35,000 MAU posted at your rate
But they don’t, so who gives a shit? Did you already forget your own stat that you took from a completely different site?
just for the record - my accounts post more daily (>300 posts) than entire lemmy if everyone of 35k users were like you - 3 posts a year.
Is that supposed to be a good thing??
Reddit barely survives
Citation needed???
3 posts/year
3 posts a year.
3 posts in 11 months
Wow, say it again, maybe that’ll help you. Say it 300 more times.
my accounts post more daily (>300 posts)
Can’t believe you’re outing how badly you’re spamming Lemmy like it’s a good thing.
You’re making the place worse, and all you can keep doing is bragging about how much you spam.
You keep using “spam” to mean “more content than I personally like.”
300 posts across an entire federated network is nothing. A single large subreddit can do that in an hour.
Spam is indiscriminate garbage. Mine is filtered for relevance, score, freshness, duplicates, community rules, and quality.
And yes, your 3 posts in 11 months matters when you’re lecturing people who actually supply the posts you spend your time commenting on.
spam
I’m not posting Viagra ads, crypto scams, affiliate links, or promoting my own shit. I’m posting relevant content that was already highly upvoted by real people, then filtering it again for freshness, duplicates, relevance, and community rules.
Call it automated. Call it reposting. Call it too much for your personal feed.
But “content I don’t want to see” isn’t the definition of spam.
deleted by creator
Nice try, Reddit agent. 😂 I’m not handing you the whole network map that easily.
Thanks for sharing!
I think there are three systemic issues that we can see here.
- Centralization
As repeated again and again in many contexts, high level of centralization leads to instance admins having too much power over the whole space.
As things stand, if you are banned from lemmy.world, no matter what instance you are on, you might as well start over, as you’ll never reach the majority of Lemmy audience. Admins protect the instance, as they should, but end up taking Lemmy with them.
This is something we can influence. If you make a new account, don’t open it on lemmy.world. You’ll still have full access to it, but you’ll also help decentralize the space. You can also find instances with moderating policies better fitting your views - from essentially zero moderation (like lemmy.today the OP and me both come from, but there are other such instances too) to strict moderation based on various principles.
- Permanent bans
Lemmy is very black-and-white when it comes to bans. Sometimes, a temporary ban or a warning could suffice, without permanently cutting someone out of the community or instance.
Unfortunately, this is the kind of problem that must be solved on the development side, and that’s something I would suggest for !nutomic@lemmy.ml
Lack of proper ways to mark botswhoops, they do exist. But make it more visible!
There must be a good standardized way to mark and filter bot content, so that those who don’t want to see it do not see it (again, a suggestion to !nutomic@lemmy.ml and other Lemmy contributors)Until then, it could be reasonable to move bot content to separate instances and make respective communities there so that users could easily choose whether they want to see bot content or not.That said, bot owners must take full responsibility for their bots and the way they may breach the community rules when posting. Moderating bot posts is a major added burden, and while we have a small amount of posters, we have even less moderators and admins. Let’s respect each other, shall we?The issue is that I’m not a bot and I’m not marking account as a bot because I’m not a bot.
Bans and moderation histories should be private as all they do is used as a justification for further bans
I’ve got my own gripes about Lemmy but moderation is not one of them.
Reddit has a massive problem with overzealous moderation and content being modded simply because one individual mod doesn’t like or disagrees with it. Haven’t noticed any of that on Lemmy.
And I disagree that moderation is preventing Lemmy from achieving critical mass. Its gotten this far with its mod system. It feels way better populated than even a year ago. It will never have the commercial reach Reddit has but I’ve no doubt it will continue to grow.
“It feels way better populated” isn’t the same thing as actually growing.
That’s the part I keep coming back to. Lemmy’s MAU has been hovering around the same relatively small level for months now. actually down from a year ago YOY. lemmy is contracting.
https://lemmy.fediverse.observer/stats
^ its an objective fact based on raw numbers lemmy so nicely provides. we are down 2k MAU year over year.The current stats literally track monthly active users, and we’re still talking about roughly tens of thousands of people, not sustained breakout growth.
And the wider Fediverse has the same retention problem: FediDB currently shows 14 million total accounts but only about 1.17 million monthly active users.
So maybe your personal moderation experience has been great. That’s completely valid. Mine hasn’t.
But “it got this far” isn’t evidence that the strategy is working. If the goal is critical mass, years of stagnation and mostly empty communities are evidence that something isn’t working.
I agree that stagnation is a problem, but you’re comparing Lemmy’s growth with that of multi-billion dollar platforms with ridiculous marketing budgets and fully staffed marketing teams. That’s unfair (and unrealistic) because Lemmy is a community project that has to grow on word-of-mouth alone. It will grow much slower and with periods of stagnation because that’s the nature of the beast. And if there’s stagnantion that’s our fault for not shouting loud enough.
Also, you’re taking your negative experience and trying to pin that to user growth. I can see your point but I disagree that moderation is a major factor.
But that’s exactly why I’m proposing a solution that doesn’t require a billion-dollar marketing budget.
Reddit is doing plenty of negative marketing for itself. People are already frustrated with the platform, moderation, API changes, ads, corporate decisions, etc. Lemmy doesn’t need to manufacture that dissatisfaction or outspend Reddit. The potential users are already looking for alternatives.
The problem is what happens when they arrive.
If they open Lemmy and find inactive communities and little content around their interests, word of mouth isn’t going to fix that. They leave.
I’m proposing a way to bootstrap those communities with relevant content, give people something to discuss, and hopefully turn some of those lurkers into commenters and eventually native posters.
Maybe moderation isn’t the main cause of stagnation. I’m open to that. But “we just need to shout louder” won’t help if people arrive and don’t find enough reason to stay.
If sanitation would tick this box in their settings then all their problems would go away:
But they won’t, because that would let people filter them out.
I’m not a bot. Again with this humanity relitigation, on and on and on.
Lemmy just isn’t what you think it is. The monthly user count doesn’t matter. If people wanted reddit content they would just go to Reddit. Lemmy is a replacement for the small scale human authored forums of the 2000s. Reddit killed them with embrace, extend, extinguish. Lemmy isn’t a replacement for Reddit, it is a replacement for the thing Reddit extinguished.
I don’t care about reddit posts and traditional social media. If I did I would just use that. I use reddit to moderate and participate in my small community with a few posts a week and I think it is going well.
Wow. I really hate reposts and cross-posts, and I block the accounts that make them.
I sort of thought I was alone in that, figured other people must enjoy that crap.
I am amazed to see my exact viewpoint expressed here a couple hundred times over.As to the point the post makes, I’m new to moderation, and I read the post because that seemed like a subject I should review.
The post looks like useless hand wringing to me.I don’t see anything worth concern with lemmy moderation.
I’ve pissed off a couple mods in my time on lemmy and gotten banned. Every one of them was a community I have disagreements with, and its fine that we don’t talk.
I don’t feel I have ever been treated unfairly. In fact, the only mod action I ever disagreed with on lemmy was reversed after I discussed it with him on YPTB.I love this fantasy that Lemmy is powered by 35,000 investigative journalists, war correspondents, documentary filmmakers, and artisanal meme craftsmen creating fresh OC around the clock. 😂
My brother in federation, almost everything here (99.99%) came from somewhere else.
It’s a link aggregator. We find shit on the internet, post it here, and argue underneath it.
You can hate reposts. Totally fair. But let’s not pretend we’re protecting the Library of Alexandria from Reddit screenshots.
STFU and go back to Reddit. You don’t even curate the shit you post. You’re a fire hose of raw sewage and I truly, truly wish you would fuck off.
STFU and go back to Reddit. You don’t even curate the shit you post. You’re a fire hose of raw sewage and I truly, truly wish you would fuck off.
That’s simply not true. There are multiple layers of curation before anything gets posted.
Posts have to meet score thresholds, age limits, duplicate checks, community-specific rules, content filters, and AI-assisted moderation. It’s specifically designed not to blindly mirror Reddit.
You can argue that my filters aren’t strict enough or that the volume is too high. Those are legitimate criticisms.
But saying “you aren’t even fucking curating” is just factually wrong.
0 posts in 3 years - you are the problem
dipshit, you are the reddit leaking into lemmy
None of the curation comes from you. The entire curation is done by Reddit users and bots
nono - thats actually curation on my side, on top of curation on reddit.
my reposting implements AI curation and other stuff
Ok but… You’re not creating. You’re flooding Lemmy with garbage from reddit. None of what you post is your creation. And it’s all low quality reddit crap. In !workreform@lemmy.world, for example, it was a fairly slow community, which is fine. Then you started flooding it with low-effort memes, drowning out the useful posts. This will kill a community. “Then post the content you want to see”, you’ll say. But there’s no point when for every one useful post there are thirty trash memes pushing it down.
Your actions are actively harmful to Lemmy.
I post into workreform - because I support that community and its message an find those memes very very relevant.
its not crap. all that stuff then reaching frontpage on lemmy is quite telling. those posts reach 1k upvotes as well. This is a proof those posts are well received.@frontg - you have 4 Posts in a year. you are the reason that people like me have to create more content the way I do it. if you would to contribute more I wouldnt have to.
Upvotes are not a measure of value. That thought process is how you get reddit and Facebook.
Again, you aren’t creating. You’re slopping reddit’s garbage over to Lemmy and suffocating its communities.
That thought process is how you get reddit and Facebook
but many people want that. Thats what I want - independent uncensorable reddit.
the fact that lemmy is not growing is confirming that current lemmy content approach is not working . proof is in the puddingYou WANT to turn lemmy into reddit? Fuck, now I’ve heard it all. Every comment you make just makes it worse. Everyone here is trying to get away from reddit. Christ.
You WANT to turn lemmy into reddit? Fuck, now I’ve heard it all. Every comment you make just makes it worse. Everyone here is trying to get away from reddit. Christ.
me too - I hate reddit, been banned so many times. doesnt mean that we should not be able to share content from other networks. we should do it until lemmy can craete own organic content.
your response is just pure naivity and ignores hard lemmy MAU numbers
@frontg - you have 4 Posts in a year. you are the reason that people like me have to create more content the way I do it.
OK, that takes the cake. Fuck your hubris.
